277. Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
1 John 1:9 AMP "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].”
*Transcription Below*
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Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.
Matthew is a Professional Certified Coach (ICF) with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, EMDR practitioner, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, The Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.
Their passion for this work stems from their own journey of restoration. After experiencing the devastating effects of sexual addiction and betrayal in their marriage, Matthew and Joanna embarked on a years-long pursuit of reconciliation. This transformative experience led to the creation of tools like The Intimacy Pyramid™, a practical model for relational restoration and growth co-created with colleague Dan Drake.
Their first book, Building True Intimacy (2023), has sold over 1,000 copies and provides practical guidance for couples to use the Intimacy Pyramid to create enduring connections. They also founded Renewing Us Recovery™, a comprehensive program designed to support couples in the later stages of relational restoration. In November 2025, they will host the inaugural Renewing Us Couples Retreat, offering workshops and connection opportunities for couples on similar paths of recovery and growth.
Matthew and Joanna live in Memphis, Tennessee with their three young children. They prioritize self-care through shared adventures, new experiences, and a weekly game of pickleball.
Free Resource Mentioned in Episode
Questions and Topics Discussed:
What were the warning signs that you noticed when you were newlyweds that tipped you off to believing things weren't quite as they seemed?
Are there any common life circumstances, whether nature or nurture, that predispose someone to be more likely to struggle with a sexual addiction?
As couples seek to thrive in marriage, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid you wrote a book about?
Other Episodes Mentioned During Episode:
Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Recovery, and Victory in Christ with Sam Black
Pornography Addiction and Helpful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Additional Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Stories Series: Recovery From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Special Patreon Re-Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:12)
Laura Dugger: (0:13 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook.
Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are my guests today. They are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Our conversation takes a few turns, from getting to hear their incredible and vulnerable story of healing and then getting tips for talking to our children about topics like sex, and also even receiving some practical wisdom and tips for enhancing our own marital enjoyment.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matthew and Joanna.
Matthew Raabsmith: (1:39 - 1:40) So good to be here.
Joanna Raabsmith: (1:40 - 1:42) So glad to be here. Thanks for having us.
Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:51) Oh, truly my pleasure. And let's just start here. Can you share your story going back to meeting and falling in love and your first part of marriage?
Matthew Raabsmith: (1:53 - 2:17) Sure, yeah. It was a little bumpy at first, actually. So, I knew Joanna through her brother. Joanna's brother was one of my best friends, and I got to meet her whenever she would come in town and visit, and she would invade guy night.
He would usually bring her along to like a Lord of the Rings movie or something, and I would be a little frustrated because I would be like, oh, you brought your sister. Great. That's wonderful.
Joanna Raabsmith: (2:18 - 2:24) A little off-putting, not super friendly. And I was like, your friend's kind of a jerk. We did not like each other at all in the beginning.
Matthew Raabsmith: (2:24 - 2:54) Not big fans. And eventually over some time, we started to realize we had a lot in common. We liked to do a lot of the same things.
And one summer that Joanna was in town, we started hanging out, started doing more and more together, and really just kind of developed a friendship, which was really fun. And at the very end of the summer, realized that there was something between us. And so, we went on one date.
Our first date, we entered a golf tournament. We won it, and that was a good sign.
Joanna Raabsmith: (2:54 - 2:55) That's a pretty good sign.
Matthew Raabsmith: (2:55 - 3:02) And we went on three more dates over the course of two months and got engaged.
Joanna Raabsmith: (3:03 - 3:07) And then two months after that, we got married.
Matthew Raabsmith: (3:07 - 3:16) Yeah. So, her brother went from like, yeah, it's cool you date my sister, to like, you're not ready to get married. But he's come around now.
Joanna Raabsmith: (3:17 - 3:19) 15 years later. Yeah.
Matthew Raabsmith: (3:19 - 3:40) And, you know, a lot of it was, I think we had a definite sense of being kind of called together, being, you know, something special about who we were as a couple. And also, a recognition that we wanted to figure out what a good marriage looked like. We were really excited about marriage, but we didn't really know what we were doing.
Joanna Raabsmith: (3:41 - 4:15) Yeah, I've had a really great model of healthy relationship. My parents have a wonderful marriage. They work really well as a team.
And so, I knew, like, I want something like that. But as soon as we got married, we realized, but how do you actually build that? There's no, like, instruction manual for, okay, here are the things to do to have a great relationship.
And so, we read books. We went to conferences. You know, we did what we could, but we still found ourselves getting stuck, not able to really create, like, that deep sense of, like, connection intimacy that we really wanted.
Matthew Raabsmith: (4:15 - 5:17) And we started kind of hunting more and more for resources. We found some incredible resources that really changed our understanding of the way relationships work, the way people work, and really, for us, shifted our entire focus of kind of what we wanted to do, even with our life. And as we started to do that, though, we still kind of found ourselves at this kind of glass wall.
We felt like no matter what we tried, there was always this kind of distance between us. And that started to grow kind of over the years that we were together. It wasn't getting better.
It was actually kind of getting worse and worse and worse. And so, Joanna had actually decided to, after we finished our first grad degree together, the idea was we were going to go be pastors. And so, we had finished our kind of theological training.
Joanna decided she wanted to get a master's in marriage and family therapy so we could do some work around marriages and ministry in that way. And her very first-class kind of just set our life in a completely different direction.
Joanna Raabsmith: (5:17 - 6:26) Yes. So, my first class in the MFT program was a two-week intensive called Shame and Guilt. So, that's a really fun two-week intensive to be a part of.
And as a part of that, though, they had an anonymous pastor come and share his testimony of struggling with sex addiction, becoming sober, getting into good recovery, healing and restoration in his marriage, kind of like that whole journey. And as he was talking, something inside of me started stirring. And I knew, OK, what he's saying is resonating way too much with me right now.
I think this is the thing. This is what is keeping us stuck, not able to really create the relationship we want. And so, that day I went home and first I just kind of started talking about my class, what I learned, what this pastor had shared.
Right. And nothing. Right.
We're just kind of talking generally about it. And so, finally I couldn't do it anymore. And I just stopped and I looked him square in the eyes and I said, “Are you struggling with this in our marriage right now?”
Matthew Raabsmith: (6:26 - 8:03) Yeah. And for the first time in my life, 20 years, I had been struggling with pornography, sexual addiction, and acting out in our marriage. And for the first time in my life, I was honest.
I had lied for years, both with Joanna and everyone else. And the kind of floodgates just kind of opened up. And I finally said yes.
And it was really hearing the story, I think, is what did it for me. I think it was knowing that somebody else had made it, that their life hadn't come crashing down because that was the greatest fear for me. That the moment anyone found this out, everything in my life would be over. Everything that I loved would be gone.
And so, this kind of story of hope gave me a little bit of courage that day, to be honest. But that started a really long journey for us because there was a lot of damage that was done in both of my hiding. And now kind of this revelation, all the pain kind of came crashing down on Joanna and kind of her shoulders.
And so, we started a quite intensive recovery process. We talked about it being kind of a full-time job. I went to recovery for my addiction and for kind of my acting out behaviors.
Joanna had to begin a process of healing from the trauma of this discovery. And that process took us a number of years. It really was a long kind of arduous journey, but one that we ultimately survived and now thrive in our marriage and get the incredible luxury and the kind of gift of helping other couples do that.
So, that's kind of where we find ourselves.
Laura Dugger: (8:04 - 8:30) That is incredible. I just really appreciate you sharing your story. Clearly, stories are so powerful and that's what led to some healing for you and hopefully can open the floodgates for somebody else listening.
So, if we go back in your story, then, Joanna, I'd love to start with you. What were some of those red flags in early marriage that things aren't quite as they seem?
Joanna Raabsmith: (8:31 - 10:28) Yeah, there are a few. You know, I think that, you know, one of the pieces we kind of talked about, like, OK, we knew we're still getting stuck because there's 90 percent that felt really good. But then 10 percent that was extremely chaotic, really destructive.
Right. We would get we call the pain cycles when we get emotionally dysregulated. And there would be some things that, right.
Sometimes we would get into pain cycles, get dysregulated. And I kind of understand why. Right.
Like something happened. There was the disagreement. But other times I couldn't put my finger on it.
Right. Matthew would just get really angry and really shut down. And I wouldn't be able to connect it to anything that had happened in our life.
And so, it was very confusing. It was really hard to understand what was going on. And I think kind of in the same way, when I would pull too close into that connection, that intimacy, he would pull back.
Right. And it felt like even though we both named this goal and this desire, he would never actually partner with me in it. And so, again, that was really confusing because the actions were not matching up with reality and what was happening.
And I think the other piece that was kind of true for us and true for a lot of other people is that our own sexual relationship was fraught with pain. And so, there was, again, a lot that was really good, but also a lot that was really painful and confusing. And some of the pieces just didn't connect.
Right. And I would wonder, OK, what's going on? Well, I guess this is just the reality that like this is how much we get to expect in this area of our life, right.
In our relationship. And so, it was when the pastor started describing his life and addiction and what that looked like emotionally, sexually, relationally. I was like, oh, those are all the things that I'm currently experiencing.
Here's one thing that would answer all those questions that I have. And so, I think that was part of it. He kind of told me, like, OK, this is it.
Laura Dugger: (10:28 - 11:00) That would be so eye opening. And my heart's going out to the couple who is maybe starting to identify with this. Was it and share whatever you're comfortable with from your story or the person's story who opened things up to you?
So, sexually, I'm wondering if it was for you, Joanna, if you were hoping to connect sexually and that wasn't happening and that was confusing. You didn't feel pursued. But I don't want to fill in the blanks.
So, could you elaborate?
Joanna Raabsmith: (11:00 - 12:03) Absolutely. Yeah. And we find it a lot of different ways than couples that we work with.
Right. And so, it can be sometimes on either side of the extreme. And so, for us, it was where there would be kind of times when he'd be fully present and interested and engaged.
Right. And then all of a sudden, kind of like I described emotionally, he would just withdraw and not be there. And I would reach out to connect.
And that was this like non-response. And which, again, didn't match up with those other times when he was engaged and wanting to connect. And he would give some sort of excuse that didn't totally make sense.
Right. But I was kind of like, what else? What was I left with except that?
So, I would kind of believe that and go with it, even though it didn't sit right. And so, yeah, I think that was part of it. We will see on the other side for some other couples.
It's the opposite. And maybe that spouse is hypersexual in the relationship. Right.
To the point where there might be pressure, even pressure to do things sexually that people aren't comfortable with. And so, yeah, it can look a lot of different ways. But that was kind of what our disconnect looked like.
Laura Dugger: (12:04 - 12:33) That's so helpful. And there's two different directions I want to go, Matthew. So, I'll set it up.
I guess I'm thinking of the guilt and shame and how those are usually so present. So, I have two questions. Were you when Joanna came to you, were you at a point where you recognize something was off and you wanted freedom from this and or had tried freedom before?
Let's start with that and then I'll go into the other one.
Matthew Raabsmith: (12:34 - 14:40) Yeah, it really was holy timing in a lot of ways. I, you know, for a lot of years I had I hated what I did. I didn’t feel like I could stop it, but didn't have a lot of interest in kind of doing anything to stop it.
I kind of just like would just say, “OK, this is going to be the last time.” And then, you know, of course it would come back. But I think at this point I had really started to see the damage that was happening to our relationship.
I could feel us growing close, growing further apart. I could see kind of Joanna and the confusion that she was having. And like she couldn't understand things.
She would ask me a lot of questions that I didn't have answers to. And so, I actually a couple of months earlier, we were at a worship service, and they had said like, “hey, if you are ready to give something up, if you feel like there's something holding you back, come forward and confess it.” And Joanna and I were sitting next to each other, and I remember feeling like the Holy Spirit just like pulling me to like get up out of my seat and I wouldn't move.
I was like, no, because she's going to ask me what I went down for. I'm going there's you know, there's a random kind of prayer partner at the front. I'm like, I'm not going and confessing this to some random person.
And so, I was ready. But I think like I said, I think there was no path forward. It was kind of confess this and everything stops and ends.
But everything like marriage ends, life ends. And so, when she when she brought this, it really did feel like God had kind of been answering a prayer that I've been praying of like, if you give me a way out, I'll take it. I'm desperate.
I want it to stop. And it felt like that. I think it was both this kind of terror and this hope that day.
And even when I said, yes, it was a little bit like, what have I done? Like, could this have been different? Should I have just gone and told someone else privately?
Right. But I think ultimately that it was out between the two of us and that we kind of knew it. We knew what we were dealing with made a huge difference.
But I mean, God had been working in my life, offering opportunities for so long. I just been saying no, no, no. And then finally, you know, I think my heart just broke and it was like, yes, OK, I'm ready for this.
Laura Dugger: (14:40 - 15:14) I love how the Holy Spirit equipped you with that humility and courage to be brave in that moment. And it's such a blessing for all of us to get to see the end or I guess not the end of the story, but you at this point in your story where you're thriving. And so, I hope that offers a lot of hope to people listening.
But let's also pause. And so, going back further in time, Matthew, this was the other part of my question. What was life and attachment and your growing up journey like?
Matthew Raabsmith: (15:15 - 18:09) Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Right. I a lot of this I figured out in the last couple of years of recovery.
You know, if you would have asked me, you know, as I was growing up about my life, I would have told you I had the perfect family. I had the perfect life. I think I did not realize that some of the things that I was going through weren't perfect, were harder.
And part of that was because I think the way my family dynamic worked was we just swept everything under the rug. You know, whatever happened, we just kind of went, OK, and moved on from. And I learned to do that as a kid.
And that meant a lot of emotional chaos. There was a lot of physical chaos and kind of volatility in our house growing up. And even though I had parents who are still married to this day, have stayed together and have tried to create kind of a stable life.
There was a lot of emotional and kind of relational instability. We moved around a lot. And then once we started moving, I found myself more and more kind of isolated at school. I started dealing with bullying and some things that really kind of left me not knowing how to deal with the pain that I was going through. And so, my way of stuffing things under the rug was getting, you know, escaping, you know, kind of escaping into anything that I could. I watched a lot of TV.
I was a latchkey kid, so I would come home. I'd watch TV a lot in the afternoon and then TV kind of just turned to more and more. And I was exposed pretty young to pornography, actually at a church camp.
I was at a summer church camp. Someone brought a Playboy magazine, and I was exposed to pornography. And I kind of felt that high, that rush.
And that just became kind of a mode of my escape. Right. Of whatever I could do to engage sexually, whether with my mind or with others.
That's how I could get out of the pain I was in. That's how I could stop feeling kind of the chaos that I was having and not realizing that it was becoming this kind of adaptive habit, that it would just be this thing I would go back to more and more. And I grew up at a time that technology was still emerging.
So, I can remember when we got our first computer and no one was talking about safeguards or anything. And so, it was just kind of exposure. Here you go.
Here's everything you could ever want and don't need. And that really became my life. And the more and more that I did, the better and better I got at lying and hiding and even being kind of vulnerable in kind of fake ways.
I would mention things like, yeah, we all have this struggle. And even Joanna, I had told like, you know, that was a struggle of mine in the past, but I've moved on from it. Right.
I told myself and other people just kind of lie after lie after lie so that I could have really this double life. I could appear one way and then I could be acting a completely different way, kind of in the dark.
Laura Dugger: (18:10 - 20:41) Yeah. And that makes sense. I'm thinking back to two episodes.
We did one with a male, Sam Black from Covenant Eyes, and he speaks so much of the origins of pornography and that foothold that Satan gets. And so many times it is in childhood, unwittingly you're exposed and then what it can turn into. And then Crystal Renaud Day came on to share a lot of females struggle with this as well.
And so, I'll link to those if those are a help.
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So, at that moment when you've confessed, Matthew, the floodgates open for you and Joanna.
What did life look like for both of you next and even individually your journeys?
Matthew Raabsmith: (20:42 - 22:30) Yeah, it was separate. We did not separate, but we were really focused on our two different journeys because they were so different. For me, I had to figure out what had really gone on in my life and what was really happening.
Because, like I said, I had become such an expert at hiding from myself and others that I didn't really know how to live any other way. And so, I, you know, Joanna kind of handed me a list of everything this pastor had done. She was like, here you go.
Right. She kind of handed me that list and was like, good luck. And so, I dove in.
I went to a men's intensive. And I think that was probably one of the key places for me to tell my story for the first time. I really took a look at my life and had some people help me take a look and recognize the trauma that I had as a kid exposure that I had experienced and what that really meant to me and helped me understand what I was doing.
But also, kind of what I was doing to myself, how I was really kind of killing myself from the inside out and preventing myself from having the kind of relationship I wanted with God and other people. And so, that discovery was in really ways kind of invigorating for me. I felt like I was living for the first time.
I think I had started to kind of get out of this kind of burden, this fear of always being caught. I told Joanna kind of the history of everything that had happened in my life and our relationship. And so, I was feeling this kind of renewed sense of like energy and excitement of like, this is good.
I want this life. I want the life there that I'm not in constant kind of fear and in constant kind of connection to this thing I hate. And so, which is really different than what Joanna was experiencing.
Joanna Raabsmith: (22:30 - 25:07) Yeah. So, for me, it was very jarring in the beginning. Everything I thought was real came crashing down around me.
And that was especially jarring because I had left kind of the direction, the path that I was on. Right. We talked about our story earlier.
It included two months of dating, two months of engagement before we got married. And that also included me dropping out of law school, getting married and moving to California to pursue a ministry degree so we could work as pastors together or do something together. And so, in that moment, all of that came crashing down.
And I kind of was very lost, not just in our relationship, but in kind of what in the world am I even doing here? What am I going to do moving forward if he doesn't choose recovery? Right.
And so, just all of those question marks, all in that one moment of him answering that question affirmative. And so, so there was like that heaviness on one side and then on the other side was this relief of finally everything I've been experiencing makes sense. Right.
Finally, I feel like I actually know what's going on. And because of that, there could maybe be a path forward for us as well. So, is this very, very weird dichotomy in that moment? And so, but I think I knew right away, like, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be intimate with him anymore. Right.
I have to step back in our relationship and wait and see what he chooses to do. Is he going to choose to do the work of recovery and get healthy and start to be honest and safe or not? And so, that's so we kind of did kind of there's some space for a very long period of time while we focused on our own individual recoveries.
And that, again, was a little bumpy for me. This is over a decade ago. And so, there is very little information about what partners experience.
We call it betrayal trauma, and that just wasn't a very common word at the time. And so, some of the resources I plugged into came from a more we would call it codependent, co-addict focus, which just really didn't fit. So, I struggled to find resources that felt like they fit for my journey.
But once I did, it all again, my own healing process started to make sense. And it was so like freeing and liberating to understand. Like, oh, OK, this is what I'm going through. This is why I feel this way.
This is what it looks like to heal and move forward. And so, kind of beginning that process was so important because then when Matthew was kind of in a healthy, safe place, I was as well, and we can start to step in towards each other on that kind of more couples’ journey at that point.
Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:17) I love how you did that wisely, though, separate first, not rushing into couples at that time. Absolutely.
Matthew Raabsmith: (25:18 - 26:33) Appreciate you calling it wise. I think we were terrified. Yeah, we'll take God's help.
I think he was like, you guys just work on your own stuff for a while. And in some ways, like I said, it was we didn't know what we were doing. But I think we knew we wanted there to be a future between the two of us.
But we knew it had to be completely different in some ways than what we had before, which was scary because we liked what we had before. Like we had a really great marriage in many ways. Right.
There was this portion of it, this hidden portion that was really infecting and killing it all. But what we did have together, we didn't want to totally lose. It just was really hard to know, especially early on, what's going to come forward.
Like, who are we still going to be as we go forward? Are we still going to be a couple who does things together? Right.
Who works together? Or is that all kind of going to have to be different? Is that the only way that we have kind of moving forward?
And so, that was that was probably the hardest part was having like this sense of like not wanting to lose us. We were like, if we lost that, that was going to be miserable. And I think a lot of our work was about how do we eventually reclaim this marriage that we want, that we love?
Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 27:04) Yes, because from what I'm sensing, you're friends with each other, you're on purpose or on mission with God. He did a course correction change, putting you on this path to help couples. But your desire to work together, it's like He still honored that in the ministry of reconciliation.
And I'm assuming abundantly blessed it beyond what you could ever dreamed up what we're doing now.
Joanna Raabsmith: (27:04 - 27:42) Right. It's been amazing to see what God has done, how he's used our story, which is so fitting because it was someone sharing their story that brought our healing. And I think because of that and it wasn't right away; it took some time to get to the place where we felt open to God using our story to bring healing to others. But we found as we stepped into that, that we have received such a blessing.
Right. And just being able to sit with other couples in that journey and see them go from that place of pain and confusion to this place of restoration and thriving. Like there is no better work that we could have imagined for ourselves.
Laura Dugger: (27:42 - 28:09) Love that. And really, you did have to pioneer a path. There weren't many resources at that time.
So, that's another reason I'm grateful you can share your story, because I hope it unlocks freedom for others. So, if we're turning more outward now and you're helping as you work with couples, how do you help them identify the difference between sexual struggles and sexual addiction?
Matthew Raabsmith: (28:10 - 30:15) Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it really kind of exists on a spectrum. And so, everything kind of exists under what we call problematic sexual behavior or unwanted sexual behavior.
Whenever someone is acting in a way sexually that doesn't align with their values. And then the question is, is how often, how compulsive, right? How habituated, right?
How really embedded is that practice? Because the more and more embedded it is and the more and more that I continue to act on that, seeing the damage that it's doing, that's really what qualifies as the addiction. The addiction is when I know that this is causing harm and I and I feel that even though I want to stop it and I've tried to stop.
Right. I can't stop the 12 steps has a great line. They say addicts, you know, addicts have no problem stopping.
It's staying stopped. That's hard for an addict. Right.
And so, that's usually a sign that there's an addiction. And really what that means is that just means that I'm going to have to be even more kind of thorough and scrupulous in my willingness to change a lot. Because if I have built an addictive lifestyle, that means everything I do kind of functions to support that lifestyle.
Right. And so, my part of that was this hiding. I lied about everything.
I would lie about anything just to make sure that I was in control of the narrative. And so, for me, it was recognizing that if I was going to move forward free of my addiction, then it had to begin with honesty, with this kind of radical honesty and transparency and growing in that consistently, because that was the way that I manifested this addiction and kind of kept it going. And so, that's really what the addiction is about, is recognizing what are the kind of pieces in my life that are supporting this addiction to continue to exist?
And how is God going to dismantle those things? Right. And how am I going to be a part of that dismantling?
Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:33) That's well said. And also, I'm curious, are there any common life circumstances, whether that's nature or nurture, that are more likely to predispose someone to more likely have this struggle with sexual addiction?
Matthew Raabsmith: (30:34 - 32:30) I mean, there are, I think, you know, the things that we tend to look for are trauma and trauma comes in so many different forms. So, trauma is more it's rare that it's a single event. It's often more a kind of consistent occurrences.
As I mentioned, you know, I can't speak to kind of one event in my life that I say this was the traumatic moment in which everything changed. But it was more of the chaos. And so, I grew up in a family that could be really, really, really loving and incredibly encouraging and fun and silly and in a heartbeat switch into one that was verbally and physically just chaotic and terrifying.
And it was that chaos that kept me on edge. What it did was it created in me kind of a system of always wanting to be on high alert. And that would exhaust me.
That would kind of wear me out. And I would want to kind of numb that kind of feeling away. And so, I think those traumas, I do think early exposure.
Right. I mean, I was exposed early before my brain was ready to really understand what it was dealing with. And I think the third component that we often see is a low level or a kind of really a void of sexual education.
There was I'm sure I had a small talk with my dad at some point, but we were not talking about pornography. We weren't talking about bodies. We weren't talking about sex from a kind of healthy, good way.
I grew up in the church, and it was kind of don't do this until you're married and then you'll be fine. Right. That was the sexual education message.
And so, those things, right, trauma, exposure and lack of kind of education usually forms in someone a difficulty of knowing what they're doing, knowing that it's destroying them before it's really kind of gotten a deep hole.
Joanna Raabsmith: (32:30 - 33:20) I think like the brain. The brain aspect to when we talk about addiction, there are usually chemicals involved in addiction being formed, being created. And so, I think also co-occurring disorders, right, that emotional pain, also things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, where my brain really likes the dopamine it gets from sexual acting out. Right.
And you can actually need it to feel OK. That can also be a factor in kind of especially that addictive side of these behaviors. When my brain gets really attached to that dopamine release that it's getting because maybe I have some other things going on or I just have emotional pain.
I don't know what to deal with, how to handle it, how to regulate that in a healthy way.
Laura Dugger: (33:20 - 34:30) There's so many good points there. I'll just highlight one because there's a profound piece that you were talking about with early exposure to evil and the corruption of it is extremely harmful. And yet not being exposed to God's good design for sex and hopefully being coached by our parents, that is both of those play a part in the addiction. And so, I'm thinking even as we shift to think about parents, I know I've had parents come to me and just say, I don't want to talk about this with my kids.
I don't want to rob their innocence. And my approach is if God made it, this is good. We can talk to them.
You're not robbing their innocence when you're sharing the good age-appropriate parts of sex. And it's so great to be that first one to share with them. And I think it does the opposite of what we would expect.
We're afraid that that might make them hyper sexualized. But would you speak to that? Any encouragement for parents?
Matthew Raabsmith: (34:30 - 36:37) Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, even as parents, we've got kids and its still kind of navigating it. But I do think what it does is it lets someone learn the things they need to in the timeline they need to.
I think part of one of the things is that, you know, really good sexual education starts young. I mean, they start six and seven years old or even younger, just talking about our bodies. Right.
Because I think that's part of it. Really, this is about understanding the goodness of our bodies. This body was created by God, the maker of heaven and earth, and he called it good.
And so, I think part of a good sexual education begins with that. And then, what's really nice is once you've started the conversation, that means if your children are exposed or if they're presented with things that don't line up with what they've been hearing, they now feel safe to come and talk about that. Because that's really what this was about.
I didn't feel safe to talk about what I was exposed to, what people were doing. Right. And what people were encouraging me to engage in.
And so, you know, my parents would ask me how it's going. I would not tell them anything because it wasn't a conversation that they were having with me. And so, I didn't think it was a conversation I was going to have with them.
And so, that meant that as I found myself further and further away from my values, I felt like, who am I going to share this with? And so, part of having the conversation is it normalizes with our kids that this is OK to talk about, which is actually what adults need. I mean, part of our work with couples as adults, we have to get them talking about sex and body parts.
I mean, it's amazing to have 30, 40, and 50-year-olds in our offices and in our sessions. And they're so uncomfortable. Right.
They don't want to talk about sex. They don't want to talk about their bodies. They don't want to talk about what their bodies do.
Right. And we keep being like, this is God's good stuff. Right.
There is goodness here. But you have to begin by talking about it. Right.
Having these conversations.
Joanna Raabsmith: (36:38 - 37:54) I tell all the parents I work with, your kids are going to pick up a narrative about what sex is and what sexuality is, whether you want them to or not. And so, would you rather be the first person to step in and give them a healthy view, a healthy narrative to understand? Right.
And this is beyond kind of the nuts and bolts that everything our kids are learning. They're trying to find a deeper meaning. They don't think it's unconscious when they're young.
Right. But they're taking it and they're going, what meaning does this have for me? How does this inform my self-worth, my view of my own value as a human in my body?
And how does it inform my experience of the world and my safety in the world? And am I empowered to make decisions? Am I connected?
Do I belong? Right. All of those questions are asking.
And so, as they're confronted with issues of sexuality, it's going to inform those things. And the world will not give them a healthy narrative about it. Right.
And so, being able as a parent to step in and give them that healthy meaning, that narrative, that understanding of their worth and their safety as they're piecing together kind of sexuality, again, at that age-appropriate level is so important.
Laura Dugger: (37:54 - 38:30) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.
If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. And I love that you're talking about this with couples you work with.
So, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid that you actually wrote a book about and you teach to couples?
Joanna Raabsmith: (38:30 - 38:31) Absolutely.
Matthew Raabsmith: (38:31 - 39:15) Yeah. I mean, it was born out of our journey because, as you said, we wandered for a while and we felt a little bit like Israel, just kind of, you know, knowing that the Promised Land was out there, but never really feeling like we could find it. And when we started to piece together, I think the kind of relationship that we had dreamed of reclaiming, we really ask ourselves, how can we make this a more direct, a simpler process, not just for couples who went through what we went through, but really for any couple who's hungry for this, for the couple like us when we were first starting.
It really wants an amazing marriage. And so, we really focused on a kind of simplistic idea of what are the core kind of foundational levels of building really healthy intimacy.
Joanna Raabsmith: (39:16 - 40:10) Yeah. So, the intimacy pyramid, it's actually a triangle. There's a visual that goes along with it.
So, if you imagine the different levels of the triangle, very similar to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, starting at the bottom, you have to start with honesty. And so, we definitely experienced that reality in our own relationship. Right.
This is something we learned from Couples in Betrayal, but like Matthew said, we realized this is where every couple starts. Am I willing to be fully open, fully honest and transparent in this relationship? Am I being my authentic self?
Right. And after that level of honesty, that's when we start to build safety. And that has to do with our ability to communicate in really healthy, constructive ways.
Even when it's hard, even when we're disagreeing, even when we feel like yelling at each other. Are we able to show up with that belief that we both have the same goal? We're trying to build something together.
Matthew Raabsmith: (40:10 - 41:57) And with honesty and safety, that's where we get to work on trust as a couple. That's that next level. And trust is where we start to be more partners, where we're really starting to kind of lean in, work together, kind of be courageous and saying, “Hey, this isn't just my life anymore, right?”
This is our life together. And as that trust is established, this is what allows for the incredible work of vulnerability. And there's been all these studies about vulnerability over the last few years and how important it is.
What we recognize, though, is vulnerability on top of nothing is actually really risky and kind of even dangerous. It's vulnerability that's built on healthy trust where we step in and we do share some of those deeper pains in those wounds, those fears. We start to really heal some of those kind of early traumas that we experience.
It's in that vulnerability. That's what allows a couple to be truly intimate. And it's when they've worked through each of these levels, what we find is these couples, when they reach this kind of this intimacy level, they're passionate about who they are as a couple.
They love kind of their relationship itself. They have a purpose to it. They have a sense that like our marriage, our relationship exists for a reason, but they're also really playful.
They're silly. They're really kind of comfortable in their own skin. And it's those five levels really working together that allows them to experience a relationship that gives life.
I think one of the things we know is that when God creates, it gives life. And so, God created marriage not to burden us, right? Not to kind of, you know, not even just to get us through, you know, kind of surviving life, but actually to bring more life.
Right. And not just life within the relationship itself, but life outside of it.
Laura Dugger: (41:58 - 42:22) Oh, I love it. And you're also working with couples. I've heard you speak before about the working on offering your spouse the gift of self-awareness.
And so, what could couples expect? How do you actually work with them to grow in self-awareness and recognize things like the emotional process they go through in marriage?
Joanna Raabsmith: (42:22 - 43:48) Absolutely. So, awareness. So, in our book, we obviously detail the intimacy period much more.
And that's Building True Intimacy is the name of the book. But each of those levels we just walked through have different components that go into that. And awareness is kind of like one of the most important components of that honesty foundation.
So, we have to start with awareness and we can't really build anything if there's a lack of self-awareness. And so, when we work with couples, one of the first places we start is we kind of look at the past. Are they aware of what they've been through, what those experiences are, and how those experiences have shaped them into the person that is now in the present, showing up with their spouse.
Right. And so, once I start to have that insight from my past, from those experiences, how they shape me, I can better understand my present. What are the things that I feel and why do I feel those things in particular?
Right. And then when I feel those things in a relationship, and these are typically those kind of heavier, more challenging, more painful emotions. How do I respond?
How am I showing up? Because the reality is that all of us cope with emotional pain the same way we cope with physical pain. We go into fight or flight.
That part of our brain gets triggered and we respond with these kind of destructive relational coping behaviors that then hurt my partner.
Matthew Raabsmith: (43:48 - 46:22) Yeah. Like, for example, I told you about that chaos I experienced as a kid. And so, those would always happen around conflicts.
My parents would disagree about something. There would be some type of argument about, you know, and it could be anything where we were going for dinner or what color the curtains were. Right.
But it would create this chaotic environment. So, as I got married, the thing that I didn't like the least was any type of conflict. Joanna and I would get in when I could sense us disagreeing and we are both passionate.
We have opinions and we believe things and we get into this kind of disagreement and argument. It would freak my system out. And I didn't realize that because I didn't really know my past.
I didn't know what was going on. I would just really do anything to shut it down. I get angry and I try to get loud, or I just walk away in the middle of a conversation.
As Joanna was talking, I would just leave the room and my acting out was just a further manifestation of that kind of leaving the relationship. And so, part of my healing journey was to learn about my story and recognize, oh, OK, I can see what's happening. And what's really interesting is it still happens in our life today.
I've been in recovery for 12 years. I still feel the same things. Now it's more like when my kids are getting involved.
Right. And there's energy in the room and people are online. And then I go, oh, yeah, there it is.
There's my system again. It's starting to feel unsafe. It's starting to feel alone. And I know what it wants to do. It wants to get angry, or it wants to just shut down and walk away. And what's incredible is that we've learned the ability to see where we're at but also speak directly to that.
And so, what I get to do for myself now is I get to go, “OK, I know I'm feeling unsafe and I know I'm feeling alone. And I know I want to get angry to solve it, but it won't do it. But here's the truth. The truth is that I'm safe in God's economy. I'm empowered. I have an incredible partner in my life. I've never been alone. I've always had someone there for me. And Joanna is the perfect example of that.”
And that totally changes my sense of really kind of where I am. And it changes how I show up. I tend to be much more calm.
I ask questions rather than make demands. And it's that ability to kind of see where we're at and shift. That's just been such a game changer for our family and just for our own relationship.
We still have to work on it. You know, it doesn't always look that pretty. Right.
But when we do, it's amazing how different it goes.
Laura Dugger: (46:24 - 46:44) And then I just think of the generational impacts that has when people are willing to do the work. And so, if there's a brave couple out there who wants to seek their own help and healing, can you share where they can go for help, including the Raabsmith team and all that you have to offer?
Matthew Raabsmith: (46:46 - 47:30) Yeah, you know, we would love them to connect with us because I think one of the things we recognize was having guides along the way. I mean, we had to figure a lot out ourselves, but we also had some really incredible guides, some mentors, some coaches, some therapists. And so, we always just say, hey, connect with us.
You can find us at raabsmithteam.com. We have a heart for couples who want restoration and reconciliation because that's what we're getting to live and experience. And what's cool is our whole team, they're couples who've been through this work, but who also have been professionally trained to help other couples to just continue to guide and to grow relationships so that they're thriving and they're kind of giving that life.
Joanna Raabsmith: (47:30 - 48:10) Absolutely. We also love to give out resources. And so, we have the kind of we call it the honest connection.
And so, again, if you're starting this journey or even this is for any couple who wants deeper connection, deeper intimacy, learning how to do that on a daily basis in small ways is so important. And so, we have a worksheet that couples can take and use. We're happy to provide that for them for free and kind of try this for 30 days and notice the changes that you experience in your relationship.
And so, that's a great starting point wherever you are in relationship to begin that journey of connection.
Matthew Raabsmith: (48:10 - 48:14) And you just go to raabsmithteam.com/free and that resource is all yours.
Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:26) Wonderful. Add links for that in the show notes for today's episode. And is this then for any couple worldwide, nationwide?
Can you work with people?
Matthew Raabsmith: (48:27 - 48:55) We have we've got couples across the world, which is really fun. It's been really neat just to see the way that God has used our work. One of the things when we first started this journey, we started getting couples calling us saying, “Hey, I don't have anybody in my area that specializes in this, that understands this journey.
Can I work with you?” And so, we kind of felt a calling to say we want to make sure that we connect with people wherever they are. And so, absolutely.
If you can hear our voice, you can work with us.
Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:14) I love that. And just as a little bonus practical tip, you kind of mentioned being proactive to thriving in marriage. Is there any encouragement that you could share or a specific practical tip that anybody could start to incorporate if they want to take their marriage to that thriving level?
Matthew Raabsmith: (49:15 - 50:12) Yeah, I think just the ability to slow down. We have a nine, seven and six-year-old. We own our own business, and we like life and life can get incredibly fast.
And I think what we have found is when, as I was mentioning, when I learned the ability just to slow down, even if I don't fully just know myself slowing down and checking in, just where am I at right now? Where's my heart? Right. Where do I want to be?
I think I realize that so often my values and my actions aren't aligned when I'm moving too quickly. I'm not being the person that I want to be. And we see that in so many couples. We meet so many couples and there are two really great people who have a hard time working together. They have a hard time kind of being a team.
And it's usually because they're working so fast. They don't realize they're kind of working against each other. So, slowing down, I think, is such a big thing.
Joanna Raabsmith: (50:12 - 51:18) Another piece that's, again, really easy to start right away. A lot of couples we work with, and I think probably even us when we start a relationship, was there were two individuals in a relationship, and it was kind of either me or you. And starting to understand there's this third thing between you, the relationship.
There's a third almost entity that really needs care. It needs nurture. It needs you to focus on its needs from time to time.
And so, beginning to approach the day, even approach conversations with this question of like, what does our relationship need right now? And even as you're trying to make decisions, what is the way we can decide this in a way that's good for our relationship or what decision benefits our relationship rather than does it benefit you or me? Because when you get into that struggle, it can become a competition.
It can become transactional really quickly. So, starting to ask that question, starting to talk about the needs and caring for the relationship very intentionally can be a way to shift that.
Laura Dugger: (51:20 - 51:38) Thank you for sharing that. I think that leads into my last question, because you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, Matthew and Joanna, what is your savvy sauce?
Matthew Raabsmith: (51:39 - 52:22) I kind of mentioned this, but I think it's the willingness to be honest. I was so willing to lie to myself and kind of really hide from other people. And I didn't even know that I was doing it.
But as I have learned to be more honest in really kind of healthy ways, right. You can dump, you can whine, you can complain, you can get angry. But truly being honest meant just looking at what I was feeling and trying to kind of figure that out and name that.
As I have learned that ability to be honest with myself and with others, it has just opened up a new world of possibilities. And it has shown me how many people care for me; how much God cares for me. So, I think that honesty is something I just want to practice more and more every day.
Joanna Raabsmith: (52:22 - 53:30) I think for me, just in my own journey and working with so many partners, that importance of being able to make empowered decisions in my life. Right. That I am really intentionally choosing the direction I'm going in life.
Realizing that instead of going into this more helpless, powerless victim stance is such a difference. And really the only thing that changes a lot of times is mindset. You don't have to overhaul your entire life.
Right. You have to add in like four hours of self-care and all of these things. But starting to shift that mindset into, wait, I have power in the decisions I make.
And one of the ways that's really important to do that is growing that self-awareness. I cannot make empowered decisions if I'm not aware of where I'm at emotionally, physically, spiritually. Right.
If I'm not aware of my needs on a regular basis. And so, slowing down to check those things in, sometimes even multiple times in the day if you're not used to that. So, you're more connected to yourself, to what you need, what you want.
So, you can start making those empowered decisions.
Laura Dugger: (53:32 - 54:00) I love that. It's just so enjoyable to host a very lively couple who's humble and you've done your work. And then you're willing to share all this overflow of goodness with all of us.
So, I think my prayer is that the Lord would richly bless you for this open-handed generosity of wisdom and your story and experience that you've shared with us and modeled for us today. So, thank you to both of you for being my guest.
Joanna Raabsmith: (54:00 - 54:03) Thank you so much. It's a joy being here.
Laura Dugger: (54:05 - 57:47) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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